To Tie or Not to Tie? That Is the Question Addressed By Our Survey (When It Comes to Extra Elite 100 Rankings)

This is Brentt Eads, President and Executive Editor of Extra Inning Softball.

Nothing gets softball people more heated or passionate— at least involving us at EIS—than when we bring up the issue of “ties” in the player rankings (“ties” in this case meaning numerous players at a spot in the Top 100… for example, three kids “tied” at No. 49).

Technically, if you have a No. 1 and two No. s’s, the next in line would be No. 4—we get that— but to honor more athletes, I’ve deviated from the norm and done multiple ties per number (other than No. 1).

And I’m not exaggerating when I say, doing ties has cost me relationships. The polarization of this issue—love or hate ties—is certainly strong.

Recently, Extra Inning Softball’s Bonnie Holland created a survey on our site and the results were, at the very least, interesting and illuminating.

There were 857 respondents and here are the results of the three key questions asked:

*** When it came to support or opposition to ties in the rankings, 66 percent say they were for them…

*** It was important to understand who was responding and the largest block—65 percent—were from parents with coaches at 31 percent and players at eight percent.

*** When asked how familiar they are the EIS rankings, more than 85 percent said they were extremely familiar or very familiar:

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The respondents were also to add comments and below are some representative ones that were submitted by “each side” with 10 opinions for and against:

Comments AGAINST Ties

* Everyone doesn’t always win so including ties is almost like everyone gets a trophy in little league!  Life is not always fair and it will be a great lesson for the girls

* You only do ties to make more players and family’s happy with the rankings you want subscribers to your site… only reason you have so many ties.

* A tie is ok as long as there are just 100 kids in the Top 100 and 300 kids in the top 300. So for example, if two kids tie for #2 spot, then there should be no #3 spot.

* I think the whole ranking system is ridiculous.  #99 vs #50?  Seems silly.  And all the same organizations are listed.  We’ve stopped this nonsense because parents and kids complain and want higher rankings.  My own kids are just fine and I don’t want them worrying about a phony number they can tweet about.  This whole tie debate just shows how ego driven the parents and kids have become.

* With ties, the top 100 turns into the top 200 and is totally skewed.

* Whether or not there are ties doesn’t really matter. I think it is more important that the top 100 (or whatever number) actually have 100 players, not 232. So, if 3 players are tied at #1, the next ranking should be 4, not 2.

* I am against the TIE.  The players really don’t know where they really stand in the ranking.

* Take the ties out to rank each player individually 40 people shouldn’t be tied for 40^th.

* I believe top 100 should remain only 100 girls. I would hate to see this turn in to trying to please every girl and player like some do for participation trophies.  If players complain it is because of their parents and what they hear from them.  If that was a goal for my daughter and she didn’t make it…even more of a reason to work harder and try to get ranked next time.

* You made the decision to longer include ties, you need to stick with that. Caving in to parents upset because the lack of ties possibly eliminated some girls takes away from the validity. It comes across as everyone gets a trophy.

* Keep it real, no ties. There are no ties in championship play. Players need to realize they are not in the top 100 if there are 3 people at every position, they are in the top 300. Muddies the water.

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Comments FOR Ties

* It is so difficult to whittle down players from around the country in a fair and robust manner, ties are necessary to allow more representation particularly for players outside of major clubs.

* Consider a standalone (no ties) top 10. These kids are usually consensus top athletes and stand out on their own. After top 10 it’s often a crapshoot of opinions and fake stats/ metrics so ties (and lots of them) beyond top 10 seems appropriate.

* It is difficult to differentiate skill levels … different coaches have different opinions.  I don’t believe allowing ties hurt the credibility of the rankings in past years, so I don’t believe allowing ties going further would impact credibility.

* Remember… This is about the players…My question to you is What is better for them?  If this helps draw coaches to them, is that not a benefit.  Is it really hurting anyone to having multiple players ranked the same. Having multiple players at the same rank does not diminish the rankings… In the end, this is about the players… Unfortunately, coaches’ egos and, yes, some parents ego’s play a role as well.  I would not want to be in your shoes trying to figure out the best path forward.  Just know you cannot solve it for everyone.

* People are never and would never be satisfied! Do what your organization think it’s right! My daughter got ranked and tied with other girls. I don’t mind she tied with other girls. I understand some girls have similar talents.

* Simply impossible to say which of two very similar athletes is better than the other.  My daughter loves being tied with other studs on your list.

* In women’s sports, it’s nice to acknowledge and recognize as many as possible. Who does it hurt? This is not the end all be all of a player’s scholarship it’s just a chance to get recognized for having a good year or two and a coach doing their job and submitting them should allow them that recognition. As a coach, I will quit submitting players if they never receive recognition and it’s the same teams always with players.

* Ties reflect reality in my opinion. Taking thousands of players across the country who have played in varying levels of competition, does not really lend itself to a strict one hundred girls. Relying on coach’s biased recommendations and stats does not lend itself to a strict 100. I am okay with up to 3-5 tying, back to the old way.

* What you were doing was working. If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it. It was good then and will continue to be good even if they’re ties.

* Ties are totally fine. There are so many deserving kids that should be in the top 100.

* I think ties are reality and should be allowed. There is no way to include a player’s story/ journey in clear cut stats, the fact of including ties means you hear their story too. A part of this game is the human side, it’s not just all quantitative. The reality is that the algorithm cannot account for everyone’s skills as they are all different, no one skill is valued more than another.   Keep ties!

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EIS Responses to Various Comments

The following comments were submitted and I (Brentt) respond to a few of them here to add more clarification in what we intend these rankings to be… ties or no ties:

* I think you should enlist the help of a panel of travel ball coaches to assist you with the rankings.
Brentt: We do this… more than 100 club coaches were consulted in the last round of rankings although it’s important to stress that no coach knows every player; most know just a few nationally (mostly in their regions).

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* Yeah, stop catering to the clubs that pay you to rank their players.
Brentt: We are NOT paid by club programs, teams or coaches to rank players. Coaches submit nominations but taking money for it would totally compromise any impartiality, bias or fairness… need to make that very clear. I couldn’t tell you without research if a coach or org head subscribes to us or not and don’t want to know.

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* Maybe a regional top 100 or 1st team, 2nd and 3rd team honors regional with a POY and Pitcher of the Year… and find a sponsor.
Brentt: we have recently started Regional rankings—when nominations were submitted by coaches, they checked on a box of options representing regions. Haven’t done them by 1^st, 2^nd or 3^rd teams, but interesting concept worth considering. As for sponsors, haven’t had time to pursue but would like to consider it. Gatorade, Louisville Slugger, Nike, New Balance, Wilson… you know how to reach me!

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* Since you asked…Do more than accept nominations, do research. Have people whose job is to go to tournaments and put eyes on these players. Plenty of very talented players out there that don’t get recognition simply because a coach doesn’t nominate them. Don’t let parents nominate. When you see some of these girls at camps their rankings don’t pass the eye test. Some have crazy stats, but play weak opponents. Some have 25 HR and play on a 185 ft field. Make it make sense. Stop worrying about complaints. It is your platform. Do it how you want. Someone will always complain anyway.
Brentt: you touch on several important topics.

1. First, research… we do our best and recently hired Regan Weekly, a former Gatorade State Player of the Year who played college ball at Dartmouth and recently graduated, to help oversee the research of the rankings. We do go to events and try our best to see teams and players nationwide. And certainly talk to a lot of trusted org heads, event directors, coaches at the club, high school and college levels, etc.
2. Second, only coaches of players—travel and high school—are supposed to nominate. We know parents will be biased, but we will take their input for story ideas!
3. Third, comparing players… it’s not, as you point out, a level playing field and we don’t just mean that literally but figuratively too. If a player bats .450 at a PGF or Alliance Nationals, it’s going to carry more weight than if it’s at a local or never-heard-of tournament. And kids on the bigger and higher-playing club programs are historically and statistically the ones who get scholarships—that’s a general rule, not an exact one. We love to spotlight those “sleepers” but if you star on a team like the OC Batbusters or Birmingham Thunderbolts, that is an advantage.

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Final Thoughts on Rankings in General

 I’ve done rankings since the Abraham Lincoln presidency (OK, maybe that’s a bit of an exaggeration… let’s just say the Woodrow Wilson era) and I’ll be the first to admit it’s not an exact science… far from it.

We are a media company—not a scouting service or a recruiting company—and our articles and stories are intended (I’ll use this word again) to honor athletes. I would say similarly to coverage like Gatorade State Player of the Year or something like the Dallas Morning News Top 100.

It’s enjoyable to follow these wonderful athletes and see their journeys.

For example, I just this week received an email from a father whose daughter was in the Top 100 in 2018, played at a Power 5 program and this week will be named an assistant coach at the DI level! Pretty cool…

It’s so rewarding to see the journeys of these wonderful student athletes–on the playing fields, yes, but also as lawyers, company presidents, coaches, moms… whatever they want to do… and they usually do it pretty darn well.

Finally, a parent put it nicely in what I would hope the rankings accomplish: bringing more attention to the sport, helping these athletes feel appreciated by “outsiders” like us and, sometimes, maybe even bringing people (especially parents and their daughters) closer together:

“Thank you for all you do,” this person wrote. “I really enjoyed all these coaches going crazy. My daughter was just ranked top 100 last year, and I have really enjoyed watching these rankings regardless of everyone’s thoughts. In my book, she No. 1 and that’s all that matters.”

— Brentt Eads, Extra Inning Softball

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